Issue With Promotion System

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Hammondsben, Apr 4, 2015.

  1. Hammondsben

    Hammondsben Athion Member Athion Member

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    I have an issue with the promotion system on Athion. The system is flawed. One may get accepted strictly based on the luck of the draw. I have seen many times jr mods say "if you get ____ he will like it, but i will not pass it". This is a flaw in the system. Also if guidelines are to be set, they need to be enforced. Many people have gotten double promotions with the lack of an area. Without names being mentioned, because I do not intend to bewilder anyone's creation, (one actually being my favorite creation of all time) there was someone who got double promotion without interiors entirely, while I was denied a single promotion strictly on my interior. In another case, someone without any terra at all got promoted twice from student. I am not an interior designer, it is not enjoyable to me. It does not make me any less of a builder and since this was the one and only reason I was denied while others passed without it entirely enrages me. I was told that my cathedral exterior was very well detailed while the interior could use the same detail. I do believe simplicity is sometimes a better, more viable option. I was also told that in cathedrals there are usually two stories and my roof was too empty and the interior is too empty. Out of all the cathedrals I have seen, (National Cathedral, Washington DC, Duke University Cathedral, Masillon Cathedral) every single one has the roof exposed, leaving a very empty feel. It is very airy, open, and almost leaves an empty feeling (I literally chose a cathedral to avoid a crowded interior as I hate doing them). I built what I have depicted, and changing to the cookie cutter guidelines that are often loosely enforced depending on the builder and moderator, seems unfair. I have had to do this for the student plot I had also, completely changing the theme of the build. The system needs a rework, it needs multiple opinions of input, a written section to explain why things were done certain ways, and the guidelines need either entirely enforced or not at all. It is not fair. I am not an interior designer and feel it unnecessary to conform unless everyone else must also do so. If this gets bad feedback, yes, I will change my interior, but building is a work of art, you don't need everyone to love your art work, it must be appreciated a lot by few, not a bit by many. Now that my rant is over, I would also like to add that I mean absolutely no disrespect to the staff or the builders you may seem to think I was referring to. One of the builders is actually my favorite builder on the servers. Thank you for taking the time to read this, I have been wrong before, so I am merely opening up a conversation rather than telling this reader that they are right or wrong. (below is a picture of the national cathedral in dc, very open, very empty, very realistic to a cathedral.
    . [​IMG]
    I have received designer with the addition of some small details. I am still fully backing my statement above, I don't think its right I had to change what I truly believe was best and conform to overused detail techniques.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
    #1
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  2. Styx

    Styx Athion Member Athion Member

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    Hey there!

    Thank you for taking the time out to write this. We take feedback like this seriously :)

    We, as moderators do have guidelines set. We're told what to look for in a plot. What it sounds like happened to you was something that I do a lot.

    I tell the person that they can improve the plot. I don't like the idea of someone making a simple interior and leaving it for their next build. I like people to work and develop their build, to gain new skills and to practice. If someone told you that the interior doesn't really match the exterior detail wise, he/she is telling you that you need to work on this, so you can get a better promotion and exceed your expectations. It wouldn't take much time to get some ideas for a cathedral interior and execute them in game.

    Moderators like to see you push yourself to get better. If interior isn't your strong point, you should set a target to make yourself better. We're a community here that's trying to help you out :)

    Thanks :)

    Liam/Styx.
     
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  3. dordsor21

    dordsor21 Athion Admin Athion Admin

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    Hey hammond,

    As styx said thanks for the feedback, and furthering his point on taking feedback seriously, we need feedback from our players, whether good or bad, so we can improve the server and make sure as many people as possible are happy. To everyone; if you ever have an issue, then please flag them up (obviously not in a disrespectful manner) as feedback from the players themselves is the only way a server can advance and better itself.

    Now, back to your feedback about the promotion system, there's always going to be a difference between the staff members in reviewing, which is why we have the rank guidelines, and promotion requirements for each rank that the staff follow, however there isn't a definitive level of depth/detail that each rank needs, as there are many ways of portraying both of these. We like to have more creative ways of portraying depth, so often-times one style of depth - even if it's not as "depthy" - will be preferred over another as it's simply more creative and unique.

    The same thing can be applied to interior. I believe that buildings in minecraft, whilst being believable, not fully based from buildings in real life, so again going back to his creativity. A simplistic and spacious interior, whilst fitting with the style of what you may see in real life buildings, may not be the most creative interior, and can sometimes be the opposite. The best interiors are the creative ones more often than not. As to double promotions with lack of interior etc, and general promotions with a lack in a certain area, the guidelines on which we review with changed a months or two back to allow a lot more lenience in style, and also minimize factors of different staff members reviewing giving bias to promotions, and since this change, I've found that promoted builds are generally more in form, and similar in skill than they were.

    Anyway, with the lack of interior etc in some promotions, the rest of the plot has been certainly up to, and in some cases beyond the level that would be expected of the rank they were promoted to. However whilst only the biggest of plots were passed, it's only these big plots that are able to show the levels of building required. The lack of interior which I believe you are talking about is that of structural interior. As with organics, interiors can come in different ways. Caves, for example, can have an interior. Getting a double promotion from student, for example, does require a rather particular type of build. One that very tall, and shows terraforming, organics and structure, so adding interior can be difficult, and this is sometimes overlooked due to the skill shown in the rest of the plot.

    Basically, it all comes down to the perspective of the staff doing the reviewing, and every single double promotion, as well as most designer to creator promotions, multiple staff have been involved in the reviewing process, which we believe is important, because, as you said, multiple views are good, however we don't think student to apprentice, and apprentice to designer need more than one opinion (sometimes single plot apprentice->designer promotions do) as the requirements are somewhat more straightforward, and the reviewing system is based so that the reviews that come in larger volumes (the student and apprentice reviews) are the ones that are able to be done with more speed than the, often more tricky, designer and creator (should we get one :wink:) reviews.

    Hopefully this explains why we do the promotion system as we do, however we will take your opinions into mind, and see what we can do to satisfy more people. With any system there will be flaws, but trying to find a balance that suits everyone is where we need more people like you to give their opinions and feedback on the way everything is run.

    Sorry about the big walls of text, but hopefully they'll help explain what goes on during reviews, and some of the decisions made a bit more.

    Thanks,

    ~dord
     
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  4. sycoinc

    sycoinc Athion Admin Athion Admin

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    #buildbetter
     
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  5. Hammondsben

    Hammondsben Athion Member Athion Member

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    I ended up getting the promotion (I spent <10 minutes on interior additions ) without a single comment on my interior, it has nothing to do with building better. I still believe one review is not enough, I literally could of just resent the review and got promoted by someone else. We all have different ideas on what we consider "good". Thanks for that constructive comment.
     
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  6. sycoinc

    sycoinc Athion Admin Athion Admin

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    You do realize I and others wrote the guide for the current staff are 'meant' to work by, As I resigned from Owner I don't keep track on who ranks for what so cant say if they are following the guidelines to keep all in order and fair with promotions.

    GG on the promo
     
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  7. dordsor21

    dordsor21 Athion Admin Athion Admin

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    The problem with having multiple people reviewing just a single student plot is that it would take twice, and sometimes thrice as long for each review, with this effect being multiplied with every review done, and the sometimes multiple plots of apprentice reviews. The same general guidelines are adhered to, and there's always going to be a variation in harshness and lenience from staff members, however having more than one staff per review will cause more harm than good, as even then you could get two staff members that are slightly more lenient in the style of the plot.
     
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  8. TheSquish

    TheSquish I'm pretty much a scummy stinker Guest

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    Our job as staff is to find ways users can improve in their build, and of course our opinions will differ since we are not the same person- we're not given this responsibility to promote. While I do see the issue of how varied our opinions are, we still look for what can be added and still suffice the requirement for a promotion. Requirements like terrain, interior, depth / detail, etc.. If a user does not have one item, I *personally * will be lenient in that area, so long as they have compensated. Now, staff member X may have a different attitude, as in if a user does not have EVERY single requirement, he / she cannot pass. It's all dependent on how each staff member is with their grading. We look for the same things, but it's a matter of leniency, if that makes any sense.
     
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